Art & Science Talk: Artist Phyllida Barlow in discussion with Prof. Frank Ruschitzka

Art & Science Talk: Artist Phyllida Barlow in discussion with Prof. Frank Ruschitzka



okay welcome back we're opening our third talk this afternoon we are very very happy to have professor Franco Shizuka Phyllida Barlow and Finn canonical on stage now for the last talk I will hand over immediately to Fink on Hanukkah I will not have to introduce him very much he's the editor-in-chief of das magazin everybody knows that I guess and that means I'm gonna just let them start with their talk without losing any more time all right so thank you for being here to this third talk of this afternoon my name is finn canonic I'm the editor of das magazin the guests today are two extraordinary personalities I would like to introduce you first to fill it up Barlow Philly the bottle is one of the greatest living British artists she's a sculpture [Applause] well that wasn't a personal opinion so she's a sculpture she's famous for her monumental sculptures made of quite humble materials like she would show a lot of them later like timber offcuts cement foam she's an emeritus professor of Fine Arts at the Slade School of Art and she represented Great Britain at the Venice Biennale in 2017 and as I remember when I saw you work at the British Pavilion I felt like kind of it was fascinating to be intimidated by the sheer size of your enormous sculptures but at the same time it gave you also kind of a feeling of in of being sitting in a nest being protected so it's scary and intimate at the same time there was something that ever that I will never forget then to Hirai this professor dr. Frank ohshit suka he's a top scientist and practitioner Frank I will call you Frank he's a cardiologist professor for cardiology at the Zurich University Hospital he won numerous awards in his discipline I don't have the time to mention them all his team at the University Hospital did some fantastic research and some breakthrough discoveries in the field of Cardiology when I spoke to Frank a couple of days the first time in his office it was really an interesting experience he he immediately started to talk about the heart how great the heart is our heart that we should be grateful to have a heart that works he then mentioned that death by heart failure is still a very common death and then I was just to leave he gave me this little thing which actually it is a heart and he said well take it with you and you can play with it for a couple of days and really look at it and studied and you sent me home basically saying I should love and pay more respect to my own heart this is something I've been trying to do the last couple of hours and we'll start with the presentation by Phyllida and then comes your presentation and then I will give that pass that's for the audience maybe you can just have a look at the heart you can stick it together don't break it I think it's quite worth something so fully to start with your presentation thank you very much I think it's a great honor to be here and lovely to be back in Zurich is such a fabulous City after the hell of London post Trump sorry I'm just going to I've got far too many images badly organised I'm gonna begin with what I consider to be at the heart of my activity which is really not about image it's not so much about the visual experience as the sentient experience and it begins with small works where touch is the dominant driving force of how I make these small works the this is also in relationship to drawing so I begin a lot of works with small works and a lot of drawings that's a drawing from the nineteen sixties seventies nineties and I will just show five works that have made a huge impression on me Louise Bourgeois untitled from 1958 this great mass of plaster which has engraved in it her own finger marks which gives this this material which comes as a powder you add water and then it says it gives us this great sense of it being in the present tense it's about her work that's continually in the now and this great rolling form is in a way kind inchoate it's very sort of anti form as well as being a massive formal presence that's about five foot high a hand from el castillo caves it's they're actually thirty thousand years old just the evidence of human life represented by the hand that in doors and to me making the hand have this extraordinary ability to do so much that is in a way not about verbal language it's about something else it's about touch it's about making its about evidence and eva has fantastic contingent which is just these materials dipped into again liquid to solid materials almost nothing but in a way completely interfering with our passage through the space taking over a space that we might be in and somehow equalling us forcing us to have a relationship with these incredibly fragile materials then Picasso's glass of absinthe which to me heralds the whole beginning of modern sculpture a sculpture which is painted is Franz he made eleven of these where the interior and the exterior twist round each other so that you almost can't read what is what what is shadow what is surface what is a convex form and what is a concave form it constantly teases you about his presence and it's only about that high then the extraordinary matta-clark slice in the building down on the hudson wharf where now if you know in new york they've completely taken these building downs and you've got these extraordinary high rise pencil pipe skyscrapers there but the action that matter Clark used to cut into these buildings is something I just continually envy where the action is is the work and that is something which I find really important I'm gonna whiz through these work this is at the Tate Inn where is it in Tate in London sorry taking over this kind of very long space in the Duveen galleries which are very sort of revered and I wanted to fit something in them that was a bit like a square peg in a round hole something that contradicted the architecture maybe it's a sort of childish relationship I have with sculpture to make it sort of not conform with the space that it inhabits to take it on maybe it's a sort of a kind of rebellious streak and you were talking about this earlier of wanting to challenge authority and I think it is it is childish because I'm biting the hand that feeds me by doing that but at the same time I'm also interested in sculpture as a very sort of recalcitrant recalcitrant rebellious art form that takes over spaces and intervenes and interrupts our relationship with how we negotiate a space so this work travel the whole way down the these Devine galleries interfering with our passage through them and I hope gave the audience the ability to be very much choreographed within the work so that they would be involved as much as the work itself so for me there's always three protagonists there's a space the sculpture and the audience and it's how those three protagonists interact that fascinates me about making these large installations more drawings I draw the whole time it's absolutely an essential way for me of working through ways of being able to try late that into making this is a hundred drawings I've got a book at home which is called modern sculpture that was published in 1958 and it's like the big bad book of hideous sculpture but I absolutely love it because it's it's incredibly old-fashioned modernist sculpture the sort of thing that's in a way quite out of fashion in some respects but I think the kind of belief in it is very tender it's very in a way very loving and what I think it also reflects is is a enormous sense of history this a lot of this work that I've then copied in a very rough graphic way is very much about the post-war years in Europe where you get that tremendous sense of some enormous tragedy having happened and that what we're looking at is the kind of remnants and the evidence of that I think it's powerful and small works again very important for me in preparing for the bigger works and yes somebody in the audience knows this work quite and this is here and this is another way I work this is the Koontz Tyler here where I quite like the idea of the half-finished work so all the works in the travel through these three galleries of the holla wherever it is it it upstairs all through so where all the rule that I sort of made for myself was that the works would never be complete they were all in a way in a state of suspension again for me the syntax of sculpture fascinates me is it in the present tense the future tense or the past bends how what's its temporal qualities as well as what's its kind of relationship with gravity gravity as a material and so for me this work in the lower floor of the con styler was like a kind of game or a shadow of the work that went upstairs which was this work which was a big stage that led to these holes in the wall through which the reconstruction of the gallery upstairs were going on so the lower gallery was rarely a kind of shadow play of this rebuilding of the space upstairs and then this final work which is the Venice were very very difficult challenge at a time when the UK was going through the brexit nightmare and still is I mean it must seem like completely idiocy to all of you and it is I don't I have I'm not responsible for it in any way but I to then be representing a country that was going through this meltdown was actually very difficult and my desire was then to kind of cram this pavilion which sits in this very colonial position which in itself is very problematic and allow the work to explode out of it which is what I felt was the imminent journey of the brexit saga so in a way this was a big metaphorical statement of both using the space as a kind of theatrical space echoing a lot of the colors of Venice with these huge colored walls onto which these in a way these parodies of objects would be hung so this is a balcony and then I'm very interested in the interiors of sculptures what's supporting them and trying to expose that so there's both the terrible lying and fibbing and pretending the sculpture does and then it's kind of truth when you actually see what's holding it all up and making it stand or in my case quite often fall and then having another attempt to make it all stand up I'm just going through these very quickly small works again these are more recent this is last November very important for me to working out how I want to tackle bigger works or just keep them as smaller works and more drawings I think that the pretense of sculpture fascinates me and the theatricality of it what is it I mean sculpture is useless it's pointless but I am passionate about it I love that fact that in a world where we attempt to rationalize everything there's still the opportunity to renege on that and make things that are functionalist and are in a way I hope for me just themselves and so this is at the Royal Academy using the whole space the images make them look like Toy Town but they're actually about four or five meters high and again for me it was incredibly important with this show that there was this sense of choreography between the space the objects the sculptures in the space and how the audience would walk through the title of this show is cul-de-sac because it's three galleries queued up so you can only walk one way and then you can only walk out again so you have this very definite two views of the of the work which was very much its intention balance precariousness a sense of the half-built the slightly unfinished all these aspects of everyday life fascinate me not only physically and in their terms of their making but maybe metaphorically as well I'm just going to go through these thank you so we follow with Frank's presentation well what a wonderful talk that was could there be an better better ambassador for the UK and it's staying vu we allow we allowed to say that because we are also not part of it so why don't you join forces with us and so it's London so it's wonderful listening to you but makes me wonder you know I'm just here a small boy a cardiologist a heart doctor no no what stays from me from you all this wonderful artwork an architect can show around say well I built that or that with the help of my people what can I say I'm not quite sure I think some patients of mine should be in the room because I've been working 30 years in this city so wherever I go I know them every now and then it's handy when the policeman or someone like that is your patient that helps you but the good thing is I know as a heart doctor who has a good heart you certainly do and who has a strong heart and but I became a heart doctor by chance a bit I wanted to become a doctor because I'm the son of a pediatric nurse who my mother kind of instilled that enthusiasm for medicine in me and and I we had a lot of doctors in the family but she actually went to med school when her mother died and she took care of her disabled brother who was suffering from polio at the time and never went back to med school and then she said and she had that enthusiasm for me and I felt like I was not born to be a doctor but I've got that passion from her I have to say she's gone long time ago but I and but she always taught me very strict lady in a way a pathetic nurse at that time there were a difference but and she wanted to always know why she's thought by the way food is medicine she always said that you have to understand everything but at that time and I went a lot to hospitals with her and stuff so I was scared to be honest and I became I think when you're a pediatric nurse since you're Ella's daughter son that you feel like you're in hypochondriac because you see what can happen to you I grew up with that so all my life actually I'm to this day ask my nurses in the hospital they've taken ECG from me and taking blood from me I don't know how many times so what at one time when I was a student I saw that movie you remember that one the Seventh Seal by Ingmar Bergman who has seen that well I loved that movie it scared me to death it was set in Sweden in the medieval time and that well a very handsome Knight women like him he meets the person occation of death and he meets him and asked him who are you and he says I'm death and are you coming from me I've already walked by you by your side for a long time are you ready and that's something he answers which I tell my patient he for my patients a lot my body is ready but I am NOT and then he invites him to play a game of chess and who wins and you know the movie and that's how we feel as doctors when you're smart enough to come up with a strategy and thanks to science we've got a lot of a little army in front of us some officers which which I can play and help my patients and get a lot some years for him but not also a nets are also some quality of life to it and that's what we're doing and I believe it or not I think about that actually a lot and and that what drives me and I don't want to scare you but and I actually have some German headlines in that because I think most of us can read German here but in Europe and England is still part of it we have four million people who die a cardiovascular death everybody's cancer is scared of cancer but you all die of heart disease that's the definition of death every one of you and that's it and actually it's more women than die of heart disease than men and more than a half a million per year in Europe die before the age of 65 they pay in the pension fund nobody tells them but they won't get it and that's the same too in Switzerland because here we are all think everyone when you're in science it applies to you but you also want to have a Swiss answer it's 22,000 people in our country that die of heart disease every year imagine more than a hundred thousand are hospitalized that second I just came out of the hospital I think we have 20 on the emergency room 20 heart patients right now as we speak they come in because when it's warm and or too cold then they come and they flown in and half of them died just to let you know the first time that they learned that they have a heart when they drop dead so those of us who come to see a cardiologist finally may actually survive a little bit longer and live better some may have a blood pressure problem every now and then right yeah all right all right she told me before and that's a good thing so you know cardiologists are usually not very charismatic or smart people but they're good to have around so that's good and they can take good care of you so what does it have to do with science so what drove me in science and it's in no way that I want to compare myself to a superstar artists like phylidia but what drove me was I want to get an answer I want to answer the question of why and actually believe it or not we in ecology consider one of the most famous artists of all time as one of our Godfather's it was actually Leonardo da Vinci who at the time the lady I think about that when you were an artists who were allowed in in the Tuscany to to do some Anatomy experiments and do some dissection of some corpses if you were an artist well and that's what he did and he had this meticulous drawing of the heart and at the time gaalan had taught the world at the time that the center of the position is a liver it was Leonardo da Vinci a tree with all meticulous drawing of the heart valves that actually that it's and introduced a cardio centric view in medicine he himself and he wrote at a time the heart is a muscle which contracts spontaneously in the trom times of these days yeah there was also he was not allowed to say anything I could tell more he wrote he wrote by the way as you see there from right to left you could only read it with a mirror I could tell you more if I was only allowed to do so he wasn't at the time the church was after him and and that is how we moved on when you look at the beautiful picture on the right this is the way how we see a heart we can now have a look at a heart without opening the chest if you ever had a hand it's it's a few things in life that scare you more than having a heart in your hand it's it's interesting actually it's an interesting field and we should give that around that but that's the way we we look at that the cardiovascular have that's what an image you can get of your heart in our Hospital if you want to it's in the center it's Ramirez 100 drop by say you want that you'll get that and what it teaches your phylidia is a bit respect your heart my heart pumps a hundred thousand times a day that's roughly when your numbers up your numbers up three billion heartbeats through your life so be careful invest them carefully and wisely and be gentle with your heart take care that's it and it's roughly three hundred gram my interest of time but here's the thing what we should do but we can now help you you know when death comes to visit you we can buy you some time we have some strategies and this is actually a young man fifty three see when he's our he's younger than the two of us shut up shut up and I'm not sure you can see an end but that is what we do here every day in our clinic we just did it right now in several patients on Saturday you see the red the red arrow there there is a second I probably can stop it which you see where that the black spaghetti has a stop where it's white that what we call a Widowmaker if you don't intervene there he would have dropped dead in a week or two if he hadn't had at smart cardiologists who had send them to us and when we put when when you look at that you see that that blockage there where it's white yeah and then we put a balloon in here on the right side and I think that is Ziggler that's one the ten seconds a day we feel like an artist we put a little wire in that and then a balloon blow that up and all of the sudden this patient has a new life again and he most likely will be ninety two and a half and that's when the guarantee expires and the Fun Zone begins so we will do that and actually we are very proud because the in our country we are the cradle of what we call interventional cardiology that is made in Zurich in our Hospital at the University of Utah in 1977 andreas grandshaykh did that first he was totally crazy everybody thought putting a wire in the heart are you out of your mind probably he was but he heard voices others couldn't hear and see what others couldn't and he played with it and he did it the patient the first patient he did in Zurich that lived 35 years after that and he would have died within a year so that is something our patients are a little bit our artwork you don't see it after that but makes us happy when we go through the city we see that and I really and that makes us proud that's a little impact we have on other patients life that was makes us happy that's very gratifying and now we can even put valves in in the heart without opening the chest we do that every day patients get a new valve and go home in two days that is something I'm in calm for in Chrome perhaps about 20-30 years ago that we could do this coming to an end soon but you know that's the way it was then 100 years ago when he would go on water on there and I love that my joy is talking to the patients and and being there just came out of there I wasn't Ward around just the hour before I came here but that's how they didn't they pass and all they had was filler that they would listen to your chest and then see what whether he had some heart sounds or something like that we got a bit better I like actually in that picture the guy on the very right he looks like working on an iPhone or something you know that's the same back then so but but do you know how we do it now and that is for me I'm not an artist at all but it looks beautiful but you know what it does and the very corner up there this is a life-threatening disease we had to operate them within a day otherwise you would have died because there's a leakage up there on the right top which you probably now here you see this here that shouldn't be the case there and that is as a leakage within a day he would have been dead he's still alive years after and the same here you know it looks quite qualify their not artists but that's actually a life-threatening disease and we could cure that by diagnosing it earlier I don't want to bore you with all of that but a little bit pickup coming to an end what we are doing in research at the moment is to look is we and as you when I listen to you put your heart and soul into what you're doing I think it's the same I think the soul is in the heart personally a para but that's a cardiologist view of the world and that is actually a beautiful and a very sad story and that is a patient who died and that we was a 28 year old patient who fell and was dying and was becoming an organ donor so and he was a valued for donating his lungs and his kidneys and his liver and then we looked at the heart and said oh the heart actually doesn't pump that well and you look at here it doesn't really pump it looks here you see it doesn't pump and they said oh we can't take that heart and you know what we took that hard that looks as if it's not pumping and gave it to someone who was waiting with where the heart where it was even worse than that because that hearth was healthy and why was that Hoth was broken for a day we call it the so-called broken heart syndrome so the brain and the heart they work together so when you are kind of terrified or have some overridden by emotion it can stun your heart for a day and in that patient who had a severe head injury the brain was firing on the heart and the heart was stunned but when you take the heart out and Transplant into another patient it works beautifully so we call it the so called broken heart syndrome and that is particularly the case it looks like a heart attack but it goes away it's very often in patients who lost the spouse in bereavement or you know Love Hurts that's what it can break your heart and what's very interesting is this heart brain interaction that we are working on that happy emotions can do the thing we actually together jelena Guidry and Kristen champion in my group they are the leaders on that they they were they coined the term called the happy heart syndrome because in evolution the brain and the heart couldn't distinguish between bad feelings and good feelings and even good emotions can stun your heart can literally break your heart for a day or two it can be life-threatening and we call it the Diagoras syndrome because that was the father of two Olympic gold medal winners in all death ins he was said now that my son won an Olympic gold medal too I can die on the spot I'm so happy and he did it so we called it that Yarbrough syndrome just coming to an end in the end this was a patient of mine who came to us was said we need a heart transplant in and because everything we can do for him has failed and then what did we do we put a look that the dilated heart on the left which is like this and doesn't really pump and the same patient the heart is much smaller it's more relaxed and pumps much better looks more lively here the right that looks much better than than that one here which is bigger and this is smaller and we could and that is probably the few things that stay from me in my life that we in personalized medicine were able to show that whether the your ECG looks like this or whether like less more narrow it explains whether you will benefit from a certain pacemaker or not this one a couple of million people have already gotten that therapy and can live years longer and better with that that's probably one of the few things that stay one day if I crash from an airplane but and that we had an impact on other people's life and I want to come to an end with the word that in medicine is for me very important we are working a lot now along lines of personalized medicine that means we want to individualize not everything is good for everybody an organ boiler turned that term coined the terms it's ofrenda at the time it was called dementia praecox we call that trumps disease these days but and in a time he was fighting with Sigmund Freud and Freud had what a theory for everything and he said no no sequent you're wrong this your opinion that all or nothing is good for religious communities or in politics but in science it's harmful we have to be more granular we have to individualize we have to personalize and that's what we are doing and we learn from him so we are now putting machines and in patients I don't skip that interest of time I'd want to end with that picture that's actually a patient of mine who we transplanted and I told him I was never at the matterhorn in my life and although I'm in Switzerland for more than 25 years and he said well I send you a picture when I get heart transplant and I go up there and that's him and he got that and that is the little artwork that it stays from us and his wife was more happy than him because for them it's very tough or going through a transplant of your spouse for all the suffering all the way there but fine ever since and with that I want to conclude with I started with Leonardo that is a way and that's how I would like to say that's how we stupid doctors look at Mona Lisa actually my friend Mandy Mehra is my counterpart on the harvard clinic he's a director there is a very good friend and he's a visiting professor in my clinic as well I did a cot we had a conference in Paris last year two years ago and he said Frank have you been to the Louvre to the Mona Lisa and I said haven't been there in 30 years but have you looked at her actually I said yeah what's the deal I said do you know that she has hypothyroidism so the malfunction of the thyroid I said why would you say that and if you look closely that was the Leonardo da Vinci she has this little splinter here that's a cholesterol deposit you see that here she has a lipoma she has high cholesterol emia she has when you look at you know my thyroid they thought he or she has an enlarged thyroid and she has a yellowish tone because of the carotene conversion is impaired and thyroidism so and actually there is a healing as a scarcity in in tuscany because at that time you couldn't go to to to the sea and get the fish in so that explains a bit so that's how doctors look at science unfortunately and so we wrote a medical mystery resolved it went viral at that time but but sometimes we leave or get the beauty out of focus here and I got a little bit lost for that so with that thank you so much thank you so much [Applause] thank you so much for the very passion that showing of the art of tea cardiology and I think that everybody now checks his own body I'm a little bit scared so at this conversation should be about what art and science fundamentally are what they have in common and what the differences are well I'm I started to think about the general definition or general thought but what the two fields have in common and maybe it's total crap but I thought both science and art are human attempts to understand and describe the world around us but in science to me it seems it seems pretty clear you have a goal you have an idea and then you do some scientific experiments and and you fail or you don't fail it's it's all it's all it's always very empirical there's there is an idea of truth and the first thing I'd like you to talk with each other is this idea of truth is there something like truth in art how do you how do we experiment and you field how do you is there something like progress in art what's exactly what you are doing as compared to what a scientist does am i but I think art is the one area of human activity where you can tell lies and you can print pretend and truth is not in the literal sense that the prime concern there are all sorts of other ways of manifesting what your reaction is to being alive now and I think it's in a way I think the visual arts have a lot to do with anthropology they're kind of evidencing how we live now what we're living now and I don't think I think there were a lot of conventions involved that get passed down conventions about Beauty conventions about the size of an artwork and how you look at it and where artworks are but I think there are many other ways which I think over the years over the centuries have been explored I mean it seems extraordinary to me that some of the first images are all in caves you know where they're dark so how did how did light get into caves I think there are a lot of sort of very basic questions about what art is to the individual or to the communities that look at art that aren't just about telling a kind of truth about the world around that they're exaggerations and pretenses and subtle interventions that alert us to the nuances of the life we're leading and I think that the use of metaphor them it's not just about storytelling it's about a kind of comparison in the way that a poet might if a poet can describe the sea the greyness of say the North Sea as if it's a block of flats where there's a fantastic poem where I've read that you you can see the extent of the language that is at our disposal as artists where it's not trying to make it into a truth actually restricts it and probably makes it all sorts of very literal have all sorts of very literal qualities well I think fundamentally our motivations our gold so pretty much the same I think I understand at least from artists that you also want to understand the world through you eyes and and that's somewhat also you're not just doing it for yourself but then shared where the world and that's what a scientist would like to do as well I want to understand the world a bit I'm I'm a curious guy I my wife would say I'm still very infantile I am luckily I am I was never focused in life I think luckily I wasn't I was not actually my young fellows look at me Frank what was your career purpose said was crisscross what and luckily I covered it at played around and and then I had learned some methodology some some skills and with that I played and was lucky enough to every now and then discover something which was meaningful or not how did you experiment how did you I mean I'm very interested in the notion of guests work of guessing up things which I think artists have the license to do instead of knowing they can guess and that's a sort of high risk activity I in hindsight I could tell you I was very focused and I had these brilliant ideas actually it was most of that was serendipity and I I was I had some great teachers and who taught me to see what other people wouldn't see and then taught me about the known unknowns or the unknown unknowns and and all of the sudden you you see something what other people probably don't see and then when you publish it that's what we do they say oh that was easy it's obvious I tell you sorry it's like maybe it's stupid just but if you're a good clinician and a good scientist you see connections where other people don't see it I had a patient in 1998 two patients who had a heart transplant and I had a rejection and we said that's life-threatening and we had no explanation that was stable and all of the sudden we didn't know and my friend Georg saw a patient X they are the same thing and we had a coffee see what's going on we we're great friends so he works at the private hospital now there are no enemies we were very good friends and and we said why and you know what happened they took a herb a hurdle medicine against depression it's called sex water you know it you know listen and and and that was one of my few contributions to medicine and we said oh but that's the herbal medicine that should be okay like I said white and we have no other expression made that has something to do with the rejection and he said that's funny and my patient also takes it and then we said what the hell and then we looked at the mechanism and we discovered the mechanism and then we published that and The Lancet in in London it's one of our two best journals the world they said and now we don't want to take that and then the National Institute of Health's within a couple of months saw the same thing with HIV patients your daughter works in HIV and these patients with HIV with AIDS we're so scared and depressed I said I don't want to take an anti-depressive pill I take a herbal medicine but what happened that st. John's wort is a double-edged sword because it makes it impacts with the manipulation of drugs in the liver so these drugs don't work anymore so my transplant patients took cyclosporine that was discovered here in Switzerland it didn't work anymore certain rejection the HIV patients their retroviral drugs the antiviral medicine didn't work anymore so they got a relapse of the disease and died and you know what also the anti concept of CNT baby pills didn't work so we explained a lot of unwanted pregnancies so in an end it was just two patients where we saw a connection which helped us and now a lot of people know that st. John's wort and these herbal medicine on very powerful and they can do actually harm we were talking about the very focused process you knew there was a problem when you're trying to find out I'd like to introduce the notion of randomness whereas when I saw you work or you doing you work actually in a video of the British Arts Council there was kind of a sculpture of a on table and then it fell and it broke a little bit and they looked very random and you said well it's for me it's alright now it's good now so so I like I like I want you to talk a little bit about the idea of randomness research randomness and producing art and randomness maybe phylidia it's very important to me I like I like taking risks and risks for me are doing things badly or not aspiring to do them well in order to see how far that process to go I'm very interested in height I'm interested in dimensions as a starting point for the work so I often make quite temporary structures at the start and I work with a team of say three people we build these temporary structures and yes they do fall down and things do go wrong then it's not dangerous alright no one's being killed yet but I mean it's in a way for me to see where the limb instead of it being sensible and coherent and the method being totally reliable and in a way quite ordinary I want to explore something where it's on the edge of that and therefore there are accidents things do fall over and then a new work emerges out of that which is almost like an object roof AIT's like a found object it's like stopping again and then I go back to building the structure in a way that is sensible because I found this limitation so I'm often working between two quite random decisions that have been in a way imposed upon the work and to me to have that freshness which I see is very alive it's almost as if the work is taking over me rather than me it I like that breakdown in control which which fascinates me about so you create by mistake whereas I mean yes don't make a mistake once I'm your patient well I make we actually make a lot of mistakes yeah but we have I'm nobody without the team I tell you and I have my people around me who prevent me from mistaking mistakes god bless and don't make too many but we all do and but what when I look at your work and I'm not an artist and I'm just a small boy but it's extraordinary but the word extraordinary means out of the ordinary some what you are when I look at you you're you're challenging systems that's what I'm what we do I tell my people always challenges good teachers good professors are the ones who encouraged to speak people to speak up challenge the system because then we move on you know and and and and in that environment we thrive that is what drives me I was always a rebel without a cause now luckily I found a cause you know and that's what inspires me is it an adventure for you oh it's adventure is fun and I I still see science as the opportunity to it's like a childish play someone and I am and I try to discover things that I've not probably even a year before have thought about that that interest me because I'm not sure what I'm discovering yeah you know I don't know I I regard myself as a very traditional artist a very traditional sculptor who has used the same materials for the past 50 years so I I don't I don't know what the question is I don't know what the answer is I don't know what I'm trying to discover but the something about the urge to take on things and often it is it this morning the curator of the Louise Bourgeois and that the show downstairs was talking about the anger and violence of Louise Bourgeois and I think that those aspects of an artist where they're allowed full rein is very different maybe to is it this is a question where a scientist has to control those whereas we have the luxury of in a way being able to be murderous with materials in a way to enjoy that aggression you know I mean I'm I'm a woman but I know I have a ferociously aggressive relationship with materials of making sculpture you know it is the female spider and I I think those understanding those emotional qualities of oneself are incredibly important in how to take risks and have this adventure is there a similar you've talked about being childish and I absolutely sympathize with that I feel I have the same instincts but do you think for you it's a journey of coming to terms with I think the greatest risk is taking no risk you know you won't get anywhere if you don't take risks that's the same in in medicine well we have to I understand between differentiate between science when we do experiments and when we do an operation or any intervention there I try to avoid mistakes and taking risks kind of be on the safe side but if we want to move the field in science yes we have to take be adventurous and and play with it and often enough but we have to be bright enough or and knowledgeable enough to see to connect things that other people don't see yes that's what we do you know and that's you know when often enough we meet at a coffee machine with another's or and have a coffee and then all of the sudden surge deputy tells us oh they will talk about something then we connect and then we have a project and some of my best stories started at a coffee machine talking to a scientist who had something totally different on his mind on an island together we got on the journey and and and got somewhere we wanted to go but yeah we work more with I work with 10 20 people in the team I don't publish a paper alone anymore but you do it alone don't no no no I have a team that the small works of my drawings of course they do myself and the small works of in a way the engine of the bigger works with maker works do you have people telling you well do it like that now I direct them right have take on this director role especially when we're doing the plaster work or the cement work where we're casting things I'm actually yes it's it's it's a team at the moment for instance we're working on a very large work for Los Angeles and I think I have eight people and I have to just the Patrol it the whole time it's a very different way of working because I'm quite interested in that collaborative that what you're talking about and I'm actually collaborating with their hands and if they make mistakes it sometimes is absolutely fine and other times it isn't and it's in a way completely irrational because it's very different difficult for them to realize when I'm going to say no can we take all that material off and start again because it's not not clear to them why that isn't okay and another person who seems to be doing roughly the same kind of fake it is okay but that's a kind of these the sort of arbitrary judgments and I think an artist makes you know and trying to then explain that is almost impossible we were talking about the difference shortly before this talk between between creativity and imagination so and then it's just an idea that I have does being a top scientist you probably need to be you have to have an imagination in order to decide what kind of experiments you're gonna do whereas as an artist creativity is much more important or are these the same things it's kind of it's a semantical problem it's very difficult to distinguish then what exactly is the difference and in which fields to you operate between imagination and creativity well they're their symbiotic aren't they the creativity seems to be the action that you apply to imagination mm-hmm and then the two work together where you begin to have an imaginative relationship with how you are creative you know it's why in a way that especially in the UK there was a very sort of moral attitude to making right up until the early sixties where it was based on good bad right wrong and you got out of that people like Henry Moore and Barbara Hepworth who at that time when I was 60 and I utterly despised now I love love them but I saw it was very much belonging to this sort of no that's the wrong way of making them this is the right way and I think that was a way in which imagination in the sort of British sense was being all tidied up and very connected to craft but I think after the sort of sixties explosion both in USA and in Europe where all sorts of things started to happen without that moral attitude to making went and the imagination and creativity became interchangeable in some way and very anarchic against a craft driven activity if you makes any sense oh it does it does it in now in my group we have an unbelievably gifted young guy who's actually from China and in his can-do some methodology others of us can't and we said play with it and he took an approach to single-cell sequencing it's a very sophisticated gene technology and in every cell of the heart and they said just play with it and we let him do and then he came back just after on Friday he showed Hudson and it's not published yet but it will be very good paper and he showed us well there are 20% of cells in the heart we actually don't really know what they do we said what that's interesting talk we know that it said and you know what they look like brain cells and I said oh well maybe we've discovered the soul and but so he played with it and and he's it's unbelievably sophisticated stuff so it's I don't even understand all what he's doing but he had the creativity to do it the skills and play with it and we gave him the chance and it's a correlation with with with Beijing where he is and he's actually at the moment with us and we said wow go on this and we see and and and at the same time we are working between these emotions that trigger a certain impact on your heart that can stun it and said wow maybe that is the counterpart that we're always looking for I can't tell you it leads us so there it's very early but the very fact that he showed us something which we were not aware of because he just simply played with it it's very and that was beautiful that makes now we're very excited about that what it but we keep him here now don't send him back to Beijing Lee said he has to do this now yeah and but but that is the kind of fun we have when we are doing them yeah but it's not very focused sometimes we don't I didn't have an imagination that we will go there often enough you know I think there's so much we don't know that's the beauty about science it's still there's so much to discover we know nothing at the moment we have made huge progress but we are very well come enough to know that we have not done enough yet when he's found the brain cells on the heart which is absolutely extraordinary so what what happens next do you form a theory around that an idea around that sort of out because that that's very comparable in a different way to the journey of an accident with a piece of sculpture you know that yeah we have to unravel all the mechanisms behind that merely characterize that it's way too early to really say how meaningful this is but it looks well it looks like almost a paradox on so and then that's what the great scientist Bohr said Wow we found something alike which looks like a paradox on now we have a chance to make progress these are the crossroads where we are sometimes what we think exactly there where we everybody says perplex to say we don't get it brain still on it doesn't make sense if so that was just on one heart have you examined Omaha weather we have to work brain that brings in repetition and that of course interest me yeah a lot because I think yeah yeah that's the thing that happens I think in creativity from a repetition yes yeah the ideal what does it mean in your work concluding it means that maybe going back over something again or repeating things because there is no such thing as repetition you know it's always different is there something like discovery in in your field you discover something that you do something new that no one else ever did in art I'm not interested in doing something new actually it doesn't interest me I find the obsession with being new and innovative is often a complete dead end you know it seems that the the journey with that particular work or a series of works is so challenging in itself but the the newness is happening without one knowing that it is new if it's new for me but often things are repetitive in terms of the job that has to be done in making sculpture one last thing and then I think we have to stop a way or at a time there's kind of an asymmetry in the two fields whereas I always have the idea that as a scientist you can easily enjoy a work of art you can listen to to Beethoven without knowing how to read the scores or understand the painting or a sculpture like your wonderful sculptures but vice versa it's kind of difficult it's it's it's difficult to appreciate beauty and science if you if you have no idea is that true that's a question to you from here where it's easier we just love her work yeah but well without science I think we all wouldn't be here we were just made to to be 40 years old what would be the beauty in science the beauty in science is that well you unravel mechanism and they make sense at the end that's for me if by a theory in the end someone leads me to something within less substantially meaningful in in medicine and that I bring back to the patient that is the beauty I see I don't have an artwork in front of me that I can refer to but if I have understood something and and which finally makes my patients life better mm don't even live longer and better with that well that's enormously gratifying and if I had the pleasure in my life to have contributed on to three parts of this well then I consider myself very lucky and that is might be the beauty I see in science in in in cardiology or in medicine and but well unravelling mechanisms of the both nature that is something I think it's and that is I know that you don't like to say that because but you're the descendant of Charles Darwin so no no we agreed not to many I know but we have to stop over time I have to say thank you to the two of you to the Duvall Oh Frank let's go thank you so much for being here thank you also from from on behalf of Zurich art weekend thank you so much the three of you for this wonderful talk

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