Legendary SFX make-up artists Ve Neill and Lee Joyner announce cosplay for SDCC!

Legendary SFX make-up artists Ve Neill and Lee Joyner announce cosplay for SDCC!



I've got two very special guests here with me in the studio today V Neil and Lee Joyner hey thank you for joining us via are both from cinema makeup school they're award-winning Academy award-winning makeup artist from the special effects and cinematic industry let me share a little bit of their incredible resumes with you he has earned not one not two but three Academy Awards for the fantastic films ed wood mrs. Doubtfire and Beetlejuice but she's also credited on some other films you might recognize including LBJ The Hunger Games trilogy Pirates of the Caribbean How the Grinch Stole Christmas Batman and Robin Batman Forever Batman Returns hook amazing Edward Scissorhands a favorite of mine Lost Boys and laser blast that's just a small sampling of some of the end of the baby and Leigh has worked on Star Trek beyond Star Trek Voyager Kiss Kiss Bang Bang Godzilla Stargate and mimic among others oh and also some musical artists like Usher and Slipknot and Alice Cooper I imagine that's pretty it's pretty pretty fun to work with in the latest chapters of their amazing careers though both Leigh and V are with cinema makeup school which we're going to talk about in just a moment V is director of education and Lee is Director of Admissions again thank you for joining us um let's start off can you tell me a little bit about cinema makeup school how long have you guys been around where are you based what are some of the degrees or professions your students are earning be happy to in fact we share something in common with sideshow this is our 25th year as well thank you what our century landmark yes it's a lot of fun we're having a lot of celebrations throughout the year and next year for the 25th well cinema makeup school is in Los Angeles we are located inside the Wiltern theater in a kind of a Koreatown area in Los Angeles we train in everything from Beauty to airbrushing to body painting – creature maquette sculpture – even digital ZBrush we have Photoshop creature design special makeup effects there's really nothing we don't train in that you would have to know to be a special-effects makeup artist in Hollywood programs can go as short as one week – as long as eight months that's fantastic and I imagine LA is like the best city to be based most people pursuing these careers the perfect place and you know what there's one really cool thing that the building that we're in The Wiltern theater building is one of the oldest buildings in that area it also they used to have the Academy Awards at The Wiltern theater like early 20s yeah yeah so it's a beautiful historic building it's an Art Deco building it's that beautiful green on the outside but all the details are still inside the building that's phenomenal just the history and the building alone just when you walk in there you feel like you're in Old Hollywood it's awesome oh my god well I can't wait to come down and bring you guys do you guys do tours of your campus we do yeah and we have a Jack Pierce gallery that has a lot of beautiful sculptures and creatures throughout the years and Hollywood some of the work from from being yourself and well I don't have anything in there which is crazy we keep asking so we're fortunate in that we're friends with you know everyone in the industry so before they end up throwing something away or you know they have something that they have an extra ah they always call me up and say hey can we can we showcase it at your school I think it's great for the students coming in to be inspired and be able to see one of the mermaids from Pirates of the Caribbean to see some of Rick Baker's work or Kazakh hero suji's and of course we have our graduates work in there because they work all over the world doing this kind of art as well as instructors to well work in the industry I imagine some of our audience isn't very familiar with your industry and a special effects and makeup can you tell me a little bit about from your careers maybe something someone wouldn't expect or know about someone that's not familiar maybe a story from a project you worked on a movie or you know an experience working with someone on a particular makeup where something unexpected happened you know unfortunately the only stories I remember about stuff like that or they're really kind of like off-color that are just work with Tim Burton and I imagine he's Oh Tim's know how to work a character Tim's awesome he's I love working with Tim I mean well I'm you know I am sorry I don't get to work with him too much anymore but he does most of his filming over in Britain so we can't really work over there unfortunately but no there were scenes yeah so I did get to go over and do Sweeney Todd because Johnny took me but even that was difficult so that was my last outing with Tim as well but no he's fabulous to work with because you know he's an artist himself so he gives you a lot of inspiration when you go in and plus he has his style that he likes you know his characters don't have a cute story specific a certain story um Tim we were doing a Rick Baker designed the Martin Landau makeup for n wood mm-hmm and he you know designed the makeup told me who the colors to use did every replicated the makeup the way he asked me to do it we went inside and we were filming and Tim looked at me says V he looks too healthy and they couldn't tell so he says he has to look sick you have to darken up his eyes and I thought oh here we go back to the makeup trailer and I'm in there and I'm putting dark around his eyes I'm trying to make him look and I'm squinting and trying to visualize what it's gonna look like a camera in black and white and in what Rick in walks Rick Baker he goes god damn and veces I knew the minute I gave you this makeup you were gonna put black circles around his stuff like that happens but you know that he has sent aesthetic Tim he likes that dark around the eyes and Martin we didn't really put like dark circles around his eyes or anything I just ended mm-hm make him look sickly you know but still it was just canal any that the first thing I mean they're doing is darkening up his eyes and in walks Rick it was like well you mentioned that a lot of the directors or creatives you work with are also artists too it's the same when I worked with Guillermo del Toro he is a trained special effects makeup artist people don't realize that that's why he even sang with JJ Abrams they have a similar background with dick Smith's program so they are as enthusiastic and as loving of the practical effect as we are in Guillermo would come into the lab and just hang out and talk about comic books and HP Lovecraft and you know that's something that I cherish and in my memories working with Guillermo is that we just long days are just sitting there and just talking about nerdy stuff all day it's nice to hear because sometimes you know if your boss or the head of the project knows kind of too much about what's going on like that could be a blessing or curse right they come in they're like especially with some of the strong aesthetic good Guillermo del Toro right like coming in but it sounds like you everyone's pretty collaborative no definitely the leadership is kind of sending down inspiration in our direction that's cific that gives you guys some room for creativity I think if they're if they're really great to work with they want to work as a team with collaboration so they'll always ask you your opinion or they love what you're doing or can you try this it's usually from my experience especially if they're a strong creative there's not a lot of you know pushing things through it's more discussing and talking but they'll have a dhaba vision that have a design they want to pull it together but that's why they're bringing you on their team you know they want someone else to rely on for that input what and then a lot of times you know their aesthetic so you know kind of what they're looking for so it's a much easier easier collaboration as well if you've worked with a director before you know you you can kind of think ahead and say I know he's gonna want this so let's do that blah you know blah blah blah whatever you know just you know simple things like when when I was doing the Hunger Games Gary Ross did the first who directed the first Hunger Games and he wanted the people in the Capitol to have a very different kind of look to them like they were supposed to be crazy and elaborate all that but he didn't want anybody to look pretty hmm he wanted Effie to be very like she had been putting on makeup day after day and not taking it off no it was cracking and her I make it was messy and she's you know he wanted her lipstick smeared I'm positive about this whole thing hope you all meet him in the middle you know so we tried to do it but she is so pretty it was smart to make her look really awful but she had a really hard edge on her in the first movie which I was not attracted to I didn't like it but that's what the director wanted suppose when I gave him cut too we go do the next one now Effie you know I'm talking to our director oh my gosh and I can't remember his name I'm so embarrassed oh you know cut – we go do the second and third installments of the Hunger Games and Frances Lawrence is now directing and I said to Frances I said can I make f you look pretty goes oh yeah do whatever you want be the first one we never even knew what she was wearing basically until the day before she came on so we're like you were flying blind I mean we had everything at the last minute this time Trish our costume designer was giving us photos of the costuming that she'd be wearing ahead of time so we had time to design the makeup so you know like the butterfly thing I had time to get the butterflies together so I could glue butterflies all over her you know it's like really cool stuff like that we get I got to figure out and design makeups for her and it was really tricky because a lot of people you know you just assume that she had on all these big elaborate makeup jobs but if you think about it first comes from costuming and then I wait and I let the hairstylist get her because you want her you want her overall look before you put your makeup on because the makeup is going to be the crowning glory that ties it all together yeah so if you look a lot at a lot of the the makeup some of them were actually very simple because she had so much other stuff going on if you would have put too much makeup on her it was just been if she wasn't pleased or did not even know what about you know to look at but she had like eight different looks matte and that was so much fun to design those looks for her you know because most of the time I'm only ever getting to do you know not monsters pretty character makeups and guys and weird makeups and stuff and I never been able to like excel in the beauty makeup area of stuff you know mm-hmm and Plus Jennifer had lots of great looks as well so that was really fun for me to be able to do so much beauty work you know those makeups were so iconic I mean that's what I remember when I think of the movies is her makeup really yeah she's she was fun to do she really wasn't how much does talent figure into that equation like do you ever have an actor and actress that the director and the crew is going towards one look with the actor actress is like oh I want to highlight my cheekbones or don't don't do this do they do they get us saying do they weigh in you know it depends on the character too because you have to really have to take into consideration what you know what does this person do for a living where do they live what you know what's their lifestyle you know you had yada yadi you're not gonna put you know highlights glorious highlights on somebody who lives in you know pirates should be greasy it's just you know I want you to consideration all of these different aspects of the person's life mm-hmm before you can really say the characters gonna look like this or that you know what's her clothing look like if she's wearing a house dress she's not gonna have Bernie she's not gonna have frosty cheeks you mad at me it's gonna be crazy so so just talent gotta say your name and sometimes you have to listen Jim they're the ones wearing it you know you they have to be happy as long as it's within the constraints of the character they can pretty much get whatever they want you know I'm pretty annual to that I mean I want them to be happy too because otherwise you're just gonna make my life miserable otherwise you know because you've got to replicate the scene yeah look like multiple times for multiple days of shooting and so really it's like not like a one-and-done kind of a thing I mean they're for months weeks whatever it is you know that's crazy and you're locked in a box in the morning with them so you have to make sure that oh so you've mentioned a lot of different places that you know influences for a makeup can come from you've got to work with costuming with a director with the talent where do you take inspiration from or when you bring your creativity to a project well first of all I hate that word inspiration because you know I'm not doing fashion makeup I don't have to think out of them you know like I'm getting inspired by a field of daisies okay I read a script my inspiration is right there in front of me I you know this is interior this is where they live this is what they do for a living like I said all of those things those are your inspiration that's what's written in front of you hmm you know you're giving guidelines and those are the guidelines that are your inspiration it's whatever is in the script so it's a different animal for us you know doing that we have to talk to the director I mean sometimes you even talk to the art director you know like what is this house that they live in look like you know we're you know what do they do for a living it's just those those are the that's and I hate using that word inspiration like I said that's those are the things that make up your character it's what it's the it's their environment that's that's what makes up your character that's awesome I'm assuming that's something you teach and go deep with at the cinema makeup school when you're just like when you're developing you know a creature you know we're kind of cave does he live it doesn't live in the cave does he live in the ocean yeah you know it's like it's that that's how you have to you know design these characters well the students are required to write the background of the character they have to know what their emotions are what their passions are what they're dealing with in the moment otherwise you don't have any guidance for bringing the character to life so it becomes believable it has to look like it has a history of future it has motivations what is it stressed is it angry what emotion do you want the audience to think or feel when they see it you know that's where animal influences come in or primal influences of emotion in different directions in the anatomy and the musculature so yeah we give pretty crazy at the school about that do you can you share with us some of your favorite creatures that you've had a hand in creating via Western I don't have any creatures doing well you've created so many creatures creatures already danny davito i'ma call vampires creatures come on Betelgeuse is fun I mean that's amazing that was kind of a fun thing to do because he started off like as a derelict I mean Tim's drawings of Beetlejuice were literally like these sketches he had up on a cork board in this crappy little trailer that he I mean we were like this redheaded stepchildren and Warner Brothers when we started that we're on it no he was like in a crappy construction trailer with a couple of other people on a lot at Culver City Studios we were like hidden away from everybody nobody wanted me you know I walked in there's this tiny little cork board with these all these sketches on it and you know I didn't know they were Tim's but but I found out eventually that they were Tim's and he had sketches of Beetlejuice up there and I don't know where I'm going with this but anyway it was a derelict II and not as glittery he turns out it was like picking in trash cans and secured your definitely has that attitude and so you know when I did the first test makeup of him he just looked hideous he was just too scary and creepy and it was like dude you didn't even want to be around him he was just nasty you know Tim says no he's too nasty so I took him back changed him again and still didn't like it and so I start talking and I said well can I can I just take him back to the trailer and do whatever I want because okay whatever theater me want so we went back to the trailer and Michael saying you know I really would like to have a broken nose he said I I don't have my nose look the same and we said okay and I said well and what if we give you a higher hairline and stuff you know so so what we did was we put a bald cap on him we moved his wig back we gave him a broken nose we didn't have any broken nose pieces Steve Laporte was working with me on that so how do you give someone a broken nose aside from a traditional manner well I don't have any broken nose piece I said do you have any press that explained around that when mimicked a broken nose he said I don't have any broken noses but he says I had these swollen lips he said I did it for like that guy has a swollen upper and lower lip and he said we'll just put one on each side of his nose so that's what we did he had lots of them he had already gotten so many of them so that's what we did we put these swollen lips one here but you know slightly broken nose and then I said well you know all the other people in this in this world that he lives and are gonna be these colored you know pastel colored people and I said look people it then he needs to be some sort of a color too you know but I thought well I don't want to make him a color but I he should be something weird so I picked the paleis yellow that I could find in this one palette of colors so when you put it on I mean for all intents and purposes everybody thinks he had white makeup on what she didn't because white makeup he would have been blue you know but this was a really really pale yellow and then I said you know what give me a PA want somebody to go to the hobby store and get me some crushed foam you know the kind they use on like railroad hobbies things all these colors rush for like the green yeah so he went got me like different things with colored crushed foam and some moss and stuff and I said we're just gonna make it look like he crawled out from underneath a rock basically and I said let's have it coming out from underneath his wig and his collars and so what we did was we just painted our adhesive on then I just started taking the stuff and smacking it down like little tendrils you know all over it just glued all this Moss to him that's Fannin darkened up his eyes I just made the circles around his eyes more like cartoony so he would be kind of funny to look at but still you know we kind of knew what we were gonna do to the other characters as well and I said well he'll just he'll be kind of scary but creepy but funny because he's so comical you know mm-hmm and so we took the pictures back to Tim and he goes that's awesome okay go with that here I love that you know so basically all the other characters were sort of built off of his look too with the circles around their eyes and all the different colors because when I initially got in to do my interview with Tim when he was talking about the people in the afterlife he said well I want to be interesting okay well of course we made the colors a lot more intense because it was more fun but anyway let's go back to like an interview they're looking in your industry so you're preparing graduates to go out in the world what is an interview like do you sit down with the director you show a portfolios in a conversation what is it like and how do you prepare students for that nerve-wracking reality I mean will train them in a mock production meeting and breaking down a script bidding on a project I mean we have working makeup artists as teachers so they're bringing that real-world experience right to the classroom but their second week in school they start getting the job emails every day Monday through Friday and they should be emailing all these student directors and independent project directors they'll send them a link to their Instagram or maybe a few pictures or they'll just say hey I'm a student at cinema we're looking you know I love the work you're doing and I'd love to create your zombies or make your vampires and then if you can get them to reply I mean that's a big deal because you know a lot of people are emailing and you're trying to at least get them to like something about the way you write or a photo you sent or something and then they might send you a script or a synopsis or an outline or maybe just character descriptions and then they might be asking for a budget or timeframe availability and then you're hoping to get them with a face-to-face and then you'll have a list of questions based on the script or the rough most of the times I saw the script because they don't have it finished and then you say this is what I can do and this is how much I can do it for and you know you've come to an agreement most of what we do especially for special effects and in their creation in not just the application end is a lot of talking back and forth and deciding on things and trying things out and then test makeups and then you know then you get into production so if you you know you really need to learn how to collaborate with people and just talk to them the makeup we do is actually fairly easy for us because we're so passionate about it and we practice it all the time and we love it but funny enough when students come into the school that's the thing they're most nervous about because it's just been them in a room and maybe watching YouTube or Instagram and they have the worst filter ball looking at their own makeup so they don't think they're good enough or they don't think they'll be successful and I tell them just be adequate at a minimum be confident but I know you're gonna be fine and I know you'll be better than that it's more about showing up and doing the jobs and meeting people and getting the experience making lifelong relationships when they start working do you guys have any stories from interviews that that you've done throughout your career sort of like wacky conversations or requests maybe you've had to like show off a test make up first kill on a project that you guys did mmm-hmm well I have a bad story for an interview my first job interview out of college this was in Florida I was living in Cocoa Beach and I had set up an interview with an animatronic studio in Jacksonville Sallee animatronics and I was so bad with social interactions I didn't go to events I didn't really talk to people I didn't know how the real world operated yeah two hours up the coast to go to this interview middle of summer hot humid in Florida I took my portfolio and I didn't know what to wear so my dad had his his prom it was pale blue as pale blue I didn't take the rugby shirt I was horrible and I drove up there in that in my truck i sat in the waiting room and I was sweating bullets because it was so hot human they thought I was crazy they let me sit there for two hours they didn't want to talk to me they just said okay well someone will be with you and they just ignored me I got so mad I stormed across the street to the sculpture studio and forced them to look at my work and you know I didn't have a lot of human sculptures I had creatures and other stuff and so Raymond Wyrick who's I'm Stu who I'm still friends with now today he was a supervisor he still didn't know what to think of me but he gave me some clay and some eyeballs and a board and said go home and sculpt Marilyn Monroe and make it look like she's wearing makeup but don't put any hair on her and make her pretty but I had to go home and then study her features which are different than what the makeup looks like so I had to marry the two and then I had to take pictures and time myself and I was so happy it took me like 26 hours and I drove back up there brought the sculpture laid out all the pictures and he proceeded to just verbally rip me a new one I said it was horrific it's the worst he'd ever seen and he was pointing out the flaws and I went back home saying okay this is not I can't do this I have to go into IT or something and two weeks later he called me and he offered me a job she knowed handle criticism and because I didn't freak out or curse at him I just turned around and said thank you for your time back home so then I started working there part-time it was so that's when I'm tough with the kids at school the worst thing you can do is go out there thinking you're a lot better than you are it's better knowing what you can do and accepting it so you can grow yeah problem is people reach points where they don't grow anymore and they think they're the best at what they do or they think they're great but then you're never going to improve you always improve always all the time and then I started part-time temporary making minimum wage and ninety three and ten months later I was supervisor and then I went to with Disney and then I did a few more jobs and then I came out here in 95 you know kids nowadays are so wimpy like you know you have to like hobble up you have to give you have to tell them all the good stuff first and then say you did a really good job on this part in this part but you know what this part over here really sucks you really need to work on this oh I really think you have to give you the kudos tell them the good parts first because you know their parents have just like handed them everything and given them everything and told them how fabulous they are and sent them on their way into the world and you know if you like you know kick them in the head first thing I don't know that they're gonna recuperate I can't get back up you know I mean moon it's really hard and I mean you know and I see it every day I mean especially you know artists they're so sensitive and now you know a lot of the kids that we have today I really think there's so many sensitive people that you really have to be careful how you deal with the kids yeah I I tried to be nice first and then tell them they said yeah but we wouldn't be doing our job as a school if we didn't be more honest with them yeah I mean we have to be yeah you have to be honest with them but you just I think you really have to handle them with kid gloves because they they get crushed too easily and they might not recuperate you know and some of them are really really good artists they have incredible potential but they just you know they might not they might need a little help getting there you know and we really try hard to do that you know I mean I I've seen so many students that look so promising you know that I am but I can tell they're fragile I mean half the kids won't even talk to you when you walk in the room they're kind of like shy and deer-in-the-headlights they don't know how to communicate they've been on their phones for years that's all they know is their room and their computer and their phones and they they don't kids know how to communicate anymore it's really difficult you know maybe now to relearn everything when they get out in out public because they've just been sheltered for so long yeah and people don't understand that about our job it's not about the talent it's about your ability to interact with people and work as part of a team and that's what we're teaching them there it's important that's why they got to start working they've got to interact with each other and they've got to remove their fragility from their canary teach them how to build a callus around their heart in regards to their work because you have to learn how to navigate the real world and that and it's tough but if you can't do it then at that point it's just a hobby yeah and you guys have one probably unique only applies to a few professions where it's not gonna be digital you can't do a makeup over email oh yeah communicating with people exactly yeah you have to be able to talk to people you have to be able to talk to somebody to get a job you know it doesn't happen on your telephone and nobody's gonna walk up do you say oh I hear you went to cinema makeup school here here's a movie no it doesn't work that way you know you know you have to earn it you have to you you have to earn it you have so held a unique about yourself and be able to speak about the project and you have to have all these really great communicating skills and they're gonna have to do they have to come out of their skin and start dealing with you know real life and stop talking to their telephones you know mm-hmm I mean it's crazy just see you go places and all you ever see is people on their phones and they're mostly kids you know it's like it's a shame mm-hmm yeah it's definitely in a mm table next time when they're texting back and forth I'm sure you help your students kind of a lot through examples leave kind of shared that tough love interview do you have any sort of challenging career moment anecdotes that you share with the students to kind of help them you know show that you you kind of went through your own challenges and I'm kind of get them I just but I can I can keep some of those stories about difficult actor types and just how you have to you know get over it and deal with it and hopefully you know you you wind up being okay and I think a lot of times you'll come with actors that are really challenging that and they almost are challenging you personally to see how much you'll take oh boy and if you stand up for yourself nine times out of ten that's exactly what they want you to do hmm if you just stick to your guns and because they're testing you to see if you know what you're talking about or that you know what you're doing or you know whatever are you gonna gonna whip out on me and not take care of me it's weird you know there's like so many egos that we have to deal with but these are not normal people like the rest of us right the reality services just stand up for yourself and let them know that you're gonna do the best job that you can do for them and make them look great and if they have a problem they can come to you but you know don't it's like if you if if you allow yourself to be rated be berated daily by them and don't stand up for yourself you're doomed yeah you have to show confidence yeah you have to be confident you just have to almost put them in their place that's fascinating yeah so you both have worked on movies and on series as well is there a difference in terms of their relationships with directors and talent in the make up themselves if you're working on a television series as opposed to you know a feature film I haven't done a television series in 35 years so I'm the only television series I ever did was the a-team Oh [Laughter] that is awesome we just oh my god up people all the time the message fired off 300 rounds of bullets and nobody ever got shot I thought but these people are the worst bloody shots they puffs up but it was fun so it's in my jamming you know like a lot of likeness makeups and you know I did a lot of disguise makeups on George Peppard and and then you know we had to double all the guys all the time on second unit so I was putting bald caps on stuntmen and double mr. t all minoo at doesn't even matter if you're on a TV show or a film you know you're with those people you have to figure you're with them longer than you are with your family or whoever's at home because you're at spending well and the makeup department you're definitely spending 16 hours a day with these people so you know because you know they want to shoot for 12 hours mm-hmm and what if you have a three hour pre call and then you have to clean them up afterwards so you have a 16 hour day right there so you're basically just always on call if something happens or something comes on anymore but but you know those people become your family you know and I think it happens no matter if you're doing a TV show or a film and it's funny you might not see those people again for 10 years and when you see them again it's like oh my god how do you Ben I love you it's funny you you haven't you form a connection to people it's just like I was doing a TV I was doing a movie recently and I hadn't worked with this actor in 20 years and he was down getting his hair cut and I was at the other end of the trailer and he wasn't looking down he was being focused at his haircut or whatever and the hairstyle said um okay Tommy @b are you ready for Tommy and he turns around like this and he goes be Neal I said hey Tommy anyone street shake my hand I said screw that I said give me a little bit twenty years you know cuz I had done Batman with him and you know he repeatedly asked for me on other films I just said kindly decided not to make myself available crotchety character because you know about so much and he was lovely and I you know I was basically on this film for woody and I said woody I'm gonna hang with Tommy make sure he's taking care of him keep cool and exist be you do whatever you want you just stay with him I'm good make sure that so Tommy is happy and he goes absolutely yeah and he was just so happy to have me there he was so I mean he was genuinely happy it was so sweet I thought who is this person where did he come from I was new year twenty years ago you know but you know people change you know I don't know why I was telling that story but it was this well I'm creation and on the sculpting and designing in both making for TV versus film with TV there has to be a fast turnaround a lot of times so you might get a week or two weeks to work on something whereas something like Godzilla with Patrick we spent eight months working on so you're with the same crew and you're you're doing the same thing you know what you're working on a project all together and you do become like a family but sometimes I'm TV shows you have people coming and going and they change the script and they need to make new things and so it's a little you don't have as much time to put as much work or effort into it whereas in with a film especially with a you know a good budget you have more time like on on mimic with Guillermo they had a lot of time and they had a good budget even though that was his first American film and that was when I got to work with Rob poutine because I brought Robin at the end Rob did Total Recall and howling and just some you know amazing ledge one of my inspirational films but tyty Ruben Ellingson was doing the designs before he was working with ILM and he had worked on Phantom Menace so it was awesome working with him and we had these beautiful baroque creatures designed but then the Weinsteins got involved the producers and it was Miramax and they decided to change the creatures 3/4 of the way through production they had to do new maquettes and or not through production to film but pre-production it was about maybe not 3/4 maybe about a quarter in working with Ric Lazzarini of the character shop and then they had two whole new designs and we you know had to change midstream so between TV and film and music videos and commercials the budget really dictates everything in the timeframe music working with musicians can be the most hectic and you don't get a lot of responses sometimes sometimes you're doing now with YouTube dealing with sometimes with YouTube celebrities it's even the worst hecticness there in a way because even though they might be the least involved in the industry in our industry they tend to come in with millions of followers and that creates a different sense of entitlement to them to a degree which is completely different when dealing with Academy Award winners that are usually laid-back and really cool to collaborate with but it all depends on the person individually and it is and sometimes you'll be expecting one thing and it's something completely different and you just have to roll with the punches until the point you just don't you can't take it anymore and back out let's go back to your point of budget I'm so fascinated by your earlier stories about so when I think of Beetlejuice the movie I love what always comes to mind I think in the character is the like Oh kind of like gnarly grave decay that I've now learned was some hobby shop Moss clearly know I'm in love with this idea and the fact that being in sort of part of a low-budget production really forced you to kind of push the edges of creativity and come up with something that's so iconic to so many people so kooky right so I have to ask you guys prefer low budget or high budget projects like if you're on a more constricted budget do you feel like it pushes your creativity I mean it forces you to figure out stuff that you used to do a million years ago before you had money you know it's like do I prefer that oh hell no with the with the lower budget in on at least from my perspective it's you can you tend to have a lot more creative influence and they'll give you a lot more freedom on what you can do because they're just happy to have you exactly so they say just do whatever you want to do or they might come to you just because of your style or your experience on another project and they'll say hey we just brought you on because we want you to do what you do whereas on the multi hundred million dollar productions you've got art directors you've got designers and it gets a lot more tight on the movement you have that that's at the creative end like at my end it's better for me to have money the line I get I come in past that heavy creative and you know it's like they've already created the prosthetics they've already created the creature and they're handing it to me to paint well I want to have all the money I can have to make the paint look good you know and to make the actor's life happy so it's it's a little bit different for me you know but I get so much free materials these days anyway for you know from all the you know anyone Doris support you all know you have social media when it started it wasn't like that mm-hmm but we had a lot of support but you know it's it doesn't usually come you don't usually get the special effects stuff for that type of support but you know it's just it's just easier to have everything that you need because it really helps to make the actors like more comfortable and because you know they're in it for so long you don't want them to have worry about not having the right kind of removers or you know or well we can't have that because we don't have the right trailer or we you know you can't do that because blah blah blah we don't have the money for that it's like come on guys I just need some cold cream I want ice wing $400 jar you know cream that maybe they can't get for free this time or something you know but it's so you know there there's certain aspects to that you know like yes starving artists are fun and they do you do pull a lot of out of here you know what um I guess it's like you really when those big-budget things come in they do kind of have a way of screwing it up artistically because so many people want to tell you how to do it mmm and everybody has their own idea about what's gonna be good you know a you spend all this money hiring an incredible designer to design design you these beautiful characters and then you know all of a sudden Joe blows daughter comes in daddy I don't like that happens a lot more than you might yeah like you know like some producers daughter comes into this oh is that what that's gonna do look like oh that's awful oh so they they start thinking and they're going oh well my kid doesn't like it does that mean nobody else is gonna like it – is it are the other kids not gonna like it it's like oh for god sake really yeah I mimic I had to deal with that with when I think Harvey when he came in with a gaggle of 20 year old associate producers assistants and all those people and one of them just threw up just blurted out it looks it looks too big it looks too big and we had already sculpted the whole thing and they said yeah I think you're right can you make it 25 percent smaller we'll be back tomorrow morning yeah so I had to stay up all night just sculpting the thorax in foam all night get it ready 25% smaller we held it up in the go yeah you're right keep doing what you're doing it's fine so this you you know you gotta roll with the punches I feel you there we've had treaty drawings are keeper like that's great can I just see it from a different angle that's 2d okay how do you prepare your students for this eventualities well by having V go in and give them feedback [Laughter] open my mouth and all the little girls are she's like shaking in there my nickname was was destroyer of worlds I don't know why I thought that was a little harsh but you know I'm not there to call them I mean I'm not going to insult them but I'm gonna say I try not to tough love I want him to do better I wanted to push can you just give him a nicety before you like yeah exactly let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the project that we're doing together us know excited so for those of you that may have tuned in a couple weeks ago we had an interview with Tom and Vee we made the exciting announcement that cinema makeup school is doing at San Diego comic-con this year a makeup costume cosplay of one of our characters Clee abscess eater of the Dead so let's talk a little bit about that what made you guys pick Court of the Dead and claps us in particular well we really wanted to do you know a collaboration with you guys and obviously you know choosing your characters would be the way to do it and I had seen all of them you know when you premiered the Met comic-con mm-hmm and that beautiful gallery setting but I couldn't remember what any individual one looked like and then Lee said well what about Cleophus and I said well okay let's let them let me go let me let me look at her and I took one look at her and I said to him I said oh hell yeah that's it thank you yes he was perfect because she combines sculptural elements and wardrobe and makeup and props and it's all in one character plus it's she's regal and she has presence and it's a very stunning character from top thank you very much so can you talk a little bit about the project like how many people are involved in bringing something like that that's a lot of people we have people all across the country we partnered up with with ever more creative in Utah with David Powell and his crew there's he's got at least seven or eight people working on that which is phenomenal we've got graduates at our school and students helping we've got Madison burger sculpting the headpiece I've got Kelsey working with her on headpiece and the back piece and the Nick sculpted Nick Alvarez sculpted the front piece a Kelsey Waldman and Nick Alvarez then we've got Hyun was helping on the headpiece and we've got arena coming in and working and then we've got Chad the Mad Hatter working with viana costume elements and yeah it's it's a lot of work especially because there are so many elements and then I'm sculpting the the mask and then the prosthetic and then I'm a lead sculptor and tying the team in Utah on our team here together as well so that's the thing we're trying to coordinate the designs and the colors but from all across the country that sounds like 10 15 different people oh yeah yeah and it's a lot of emails and photographs and phone calls and late nights and we've been working non-stop and if we're not happy with it we'll go back and we'll redo it because we want to make sure if it truly stands up to the to the beauty that y'all created here at sideshow that's like the perfect Bible for us to go from thank you we're so honored that you chose our character that our character inspired you to bring this amazing team together to do this oh we cannot oh so you can tune into court of the Dead social media and also cinema makeups social media to see some sneak peeks of the in progress of this look but if you're going to be attending San Diego comic-con this July or if you're following San Diego comic-con through us or cinema makeup school you can see this look coming to life at cinema makeup schools booth I don't suppose you know your booth number we do it is 45 2345 22 say it is they must stop 45230 Sturm AMC yeah we're across some names he Walking Dead experience and Fox and I'll be there sculpting on various sculptures and maquettes will have multiple teams doing multiple makeups we have some graduates doing a Star Wars Jedi alien and then we have a Hellboy inspired characters which is Hellboy and it's gonna be a lot of fun and they get to see the process ongoing talk to us find out more about the school it's a lot of it's a lot of work but it's it's worth it especially to to talk to people directly and they can see it in person it's kind of like a mini traveling face-off what have been some of the most challenging aspects of bringing Klee apses to life so far I know there's a lot of moving parts it's Randy and I were just talking about this earlier it's coordinating the weight and the stability and the understructure and yeah because with tasia wheaton who is our incredible model which we're we're obviously staying true to the character but we're trying to put our spin a little bit in different areas and tasia has a she's gorgeous and we're trying to match her face with the prosthetic and with the mask that goes on top and she's tall and very statuesque so we don't want her to be uncomfortable wearing it or walking around so you've got this big heavy so we're trying to make it as light as possible you've got these big dreads that we're trying to make as light as possible she's got a snake she's carrying around that's gonna light up and it's she's got this giant scythe then we've got a whole crew that'd be had idea to have them kind of in robes and wearing these masks could be like their retinue and so it's really delicious so and then dealing with the budget because you know we're funding it and it's it's low budget so we're trying to be creative and put and so ever mores is out of the goodness of their heart you know is helping us which we couldn't thank them enough collaborating with us is you know they're doing you know we're supplying all the supplies but they are doing their services a complimentary service for us you know Wow they even got our contact lenses for all of our nine-millimeter Wow so we've had a lot we've been very fortunate we've you know and you know it's we're a school so we don't have a lot of money to put into these you know here we go with a budget thing yeah yeah so we've been forced to be as creative as possible and begum on I mentioned you're very hard to say no to but I mean we're fortunate and that we're kind of a we produce some of the best talent yeah I feel in the world with our graduates we have some incredibly artistic people that come through and go on to do amazing things well I mean we have many in the award-winning graduates we had Diana who was just working on the Academy Award winning darkest hour with Kazu we have Xena schnozzola how many Emmys she has for Dancing with the Stars we have Sabrina which just nominated last year the year before for LBJ working with bill Corr so yeah we have there's not a single horror movie or a science fiction or fantasy show they're probably at a minimum tangentially in the creation in but on set doesn't have our graduates we have graduates on Game of Thrones every Marvel film we've got graduates on all the conjuring films the non sinister I mean Aquaman I don't know I could just keep going and we're very proud of them we got Wayne Anderson we had a lot of graduates on face off and from that alone they got so much coverage a lot of them have gone on to become union members now so no yeah do we have we've had incredible success stories and like I say I think we're the Harvard at makeup school so yeah we take it very seriously and we're kind of like the Emerald City and honest you know if you made your way to us you know you're ready it's a lot a lot of hard work to get out to Los Angeles and we want to inspire the people all around the world that you know want to do this as a career but we only want those people that are serious about it that that want to take it all the way to the end and you know we're just we're just thrilled with a lot of our a lot of our students all of our graduates they all really take it that extra mile and we try to inspire with our teachers and our staff as much as we can it was wonderful thank you both so much let's uh let's end it I'd love to we didn't do a you know Q&A with this segment but a question we see a lot is what what piece of advice do you have for someone aspiring you know in your industry so I'd love to make that sort of our last question here at the end like if you have one piece of advice for someone who wants to to go into the special effects makeup world what is what would that be Wow follow your ornament I don't know what else to say I mean you have to be passionate about this career because there is a lot of competition out but I mean if you're passionate enough and you stick to it and like I always tell the students I said you know there is no job that doesn't pay any money that you should not be taking mmm I mean take any jobs it's off to you because it's all about getting experience once you get once you have the knowledge you have to get the experience because that's what's gonna make you better and that's gonna feel that's gonna fuel your passion as well you know when you can see something that you've completed it's just gonna make you want you're gonna get addicted and you're just gonna keep wanting to do it again and again and it's like you know you you have to have that passion you know that stick-to-it-ness or you're not gonna make it yeah yeah I mean like I tell all the kids coming in you're gonna be told no throughout your whole life if you want to do this for a living your family's gonna say it's a joke of a career you're not going to make money there's too much competition well if you never put your body in Los Angeles to do the work how would you ever know if it's feasible it's better gear to try and not look back and regret okay and there's the only thing that separates Vee and myself and all of these wonderful artists out here working is we just didn't take no for an answer we just kept moving forward we came out here that's why there's really we're a small community there's not a large amount of people out here doing this a lot of people think there's hundreds of thousands no it's not that many people most of us know each other the only thing that separates us is you know well you're from here but I had to go through a lot of firewalls of people telling me this isn't something you can ever do and okay you stay back in Alabama and you work in the factory or you get that mortgage or you get that family you get that bass boat everybody at the bass part but I'm not gonna stop and I finally you know came out and that's the thing I did bring my pickup truck and they're also gonna find that you know because if they went through all of that they're gonna have a negative view of what they do or themselves in that day there they're gonna be their worst critic because they've been practicing and they're so hard on themselves and that is the thing I see that defeats everyone when they get defeated is they don't think they're good enough they don't think they can do it know just go to sleep get up the next day and go into work again you're gonna be fine you're gonna fail things are gonna go wrong sometimes horribly wrong but you have to recover and move on it's throughout life yeah so if you if you're afraid of failure you've never failed you know you have to keep failing over and over until a failure becomes a success and they're really this same thing because you don't learn from success you were a failure well thank you so much for joining us we're so excited to be working with you guys we're excited for y'all makan yeah we're coming up around the corner Klee ops this makeup don't forget to stop by cinema makeups booth cinema makeup schools booth which was twenty four forty five twenty you

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